Talk:Smaug

Smaug has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: February 27, 2020. (Reviewed version).

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Zmeu

Any relation to the Romanian dragon zmeu?

Slavic_dragon might tell. --DLL 16:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Romanian "zmeu" not but Slavic Zmej, yes. The name in Hobbit is rather derived from the old Slavic word "smogati" to soak and is a main Bulgarian mythic/folkloric flying snake named Smok. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.215.95.22 (talk) 07:52, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Potential expansion of Smaug

Is there more that can be said about Smaug? Almost certainly. I believe that Tolkien drew a picture of Smaug, so that should be mentioned. There should also be something about Smaug's voice and his cunning. The article also needs rewriting to reflect the plotlines better. As for secondary literature about Smaug, there should be some things that can be quoted and referenced, hopefully including something comparing Smaug with dragons in mythology and other stories (both by Tolkien and by others). I'll see what I can find, unless someone else finds stuff first. It should also be possible to list several of the more notable artworks of Smaug that are used in editions of 'The Hobbit'. Also, there have been numerous plays done of 'The Hobbit', so some mention of Smaug in relation to those should be possible. The disambiguation hatnote at the top is an example of Smaug inspiring uses in popular culture, so that would be a good start to a "popular culture" section. The portrayals could also mention the two radio versions of 'The Hobbit'. All this should help address the "in universe" concerns expressed here. Carcharoth 09:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Last time I tried including a comparison of HP plot to Beowulf, just recently as it happens, it immediately got struck out by someone citing fiction guidelines and demanding references to demonstrate that this was not OR. Something of an irony, really, given the debate i have been having on the fiction guideline page. But leads to my concern that taken strictly the guidelines might amount to permitting nothing to be inclued. Sandpiper 16:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These books and these essays will no doubt provide more than enough information to fully flesh out this article. And, Sandpiper, if you did not cite your sources, the editor who removed your edits was perfectly within his or her rights. WP:CITE and WP:NOR are quite clear on this. — BrianSmithson 17:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's a close reading of Smaug compared to Miðgarðsorm, the slaying of Fafnir by Sigurð, and the dragon killed by Beowulf, in J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century by Tom Shippey, pp. 36-40, ISBN 0-261-10401-2 --zippedmartin 04:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, there is a danger that these guidelines a written would entitle someone to delete everything. Sandpiper 01:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sandpiper - if you can get your comparison of Beowulf and HP published, then it can be cited. Until then, it is OR. Though sometimes Wikipedia is a great place to get inspiration for new ideas, and I think there should be a place to deposit these OR ideas so that others can provide sources or they can be published somewhere. Carcharoth 00:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thrush

If memory serves me, wasn't the thrush in fact Gandalf?--Snideology 00:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But feel free to christen it "Gandalf" if you feel it deserves a name. Gandalf could be called "Jane". Not050 (talk) 01:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Swap

Actually, while I'm here, I think I'll just move the "abilities" section closer to the beginning rather than the end, so that it follows on from a reference to the character in the plot rather than a section on how Tolkien thought of his name. Not050 (talk) 01:27, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sources and verifications thing

I'm wondering what other sources are needed for this now. We've found the Beouwulf link, and the other facts surely come from the book itself. Not050 (talk) 15:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)Not050[reply]

would you believe that the hobbit isn't listed as a ref here? pauli133 (talk) 15:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Main Antagonist?

How exactly may I ask was Smaug the main antagonist of the story? He had an antagonistic role but in The Two Towers, Grishnakh has an antagonist role even though Sauron and/or Saruman are the main villains. I read the book again recently and the way I see it the Goblins are the main antagonists. After all they are met with more than once and the book's climax takes place in a fight against them. -- Flashpenny

In the same way that The Lord Of The Rings is about the battle against Sauron, the Hobbit is about the battle to remove Smaug. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 11:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dalish???

I don't think the phrase, "original Dalish" is appropriate describing Tragu as an alternate name. The reference is good, where it's made clear that Smaug is Tolkien's Common Tongue interpretation of the name Tragu used in Dale. The folks of Dale didn't speak "Dalish" (such a word never exists in Tolkien) but a Northern dialect related to the Common Tongue that isn't specifically named. However, since "Dalish" is a language of elves in an unrelated fantasy universe I don't think that using that word here is appropriate (and wrong if that is the intent). I suggest the reference be changed to something like, "native name in Dale." That removes any and all possible confusion. 71.126.134.205 (talk)mjd —Preceding undated comment added 02:10, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Forbes Fictional 15

The article exists (Forbes_Fictional_15) and is referenced textually, so should be linked. 69.95.203.145 (talk) 17:42, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Worm?"

Should Smaug not be considered a "wyrm" rather than worm in the first paragraph. I always read dragons referred to as wyrm or drakes. I know it's about a fictional character, but still...

User:CharlieP216 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.206.119.7 (talk) 17:35, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No. It's a quote from the book, he's described in The Hobbit as a Worm. GimliDotNet (talk) 18:22, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Help

I tried to upload a picture of Smaug as it appears in The Hobbit film trilogy, but I couldn't, because I do not have the ability to uploadf inages on Wikikipedia.Could you upload this picture for me?This picture can be found on site One Wiki to Rule Them All or The Lord of the Rings Wiki specifically on the Gallery page about Smaug. You will see it. See Smaug/Image Gallery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.86.255.196 (talk) 16:29, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Four or two legs?

I'm fairly certain that Tolkien felt that Smaug (and dragons in general) had four limbs in addition to the wings. This isn't clearly shown in Tolkien's illustration of Smaug, but the two limbs seen are articulated and located just like forelimbs.

This means that Peter Jackson's depiction isn't faithful to the books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.139.182.135 (talk) 03:15, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology

I was told his name was etymologically connected to the word smog. The Mo-Ja'al (talk) 02:45, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

By whom? Lava Lamps (talk) 19:46, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's no connection. The real etymology is in the article. Smugan=to creep through a hole. Whereas: Smog = Smoke+Fog. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:36, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Smaug/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 21:55, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Lead - Would it also be appropriate to mention in the lead that he figured in the Peter Jackson film?

Why not. Done.

Infobox - Some of the names included in the infobox are not mentioned/cited in the text or cited in the infobox. "The golden", "The magnificent", "Dragon of Erebor", and "The Worm of Dread" are these names. Dragon of Erebor is a tad obvious, but the others should be cited/removed. Primary source would be acceptable here.

Removed.

Story - is "Appendix" a proper noun in this case?

Removed the clutter.

"and accused the Hobbit (correctly) of trying to steal from him." - The rest of this section is in the present tense, and the context suggests this should be present-tense, too.

Ah. Past tense for the whole section, per the Middle-earth standard.

I noticed you already worked this the other way, but I was thinking this one sentence should be in present tense. I'm personally a little dubious of the special ME standard, but if you want to keep it in all past tense, that would be acceptable given that's a Wikiproject standard. Don't care so long as it's consistent the entire way. Hog Farm (talk) 22:12, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I quite understand your feelings on the matter. Personally I tend to use tense informally and naturally but we'd best follow the rule now.

Laketown is mentioned with no context. This could probably be easily solved by throwing in a reference to Dale in the description of the destruction of Thror's kingdom, and then making the connection between Dale and Laketown.

Done.

Illustrations - Is there a better place to put this section? Maybe it's my reading of the article, but the placement feels a little awkward.

Moved.

Old English spell You reference Day's book, then use the dictionary (cited to the dictionary), and the use and cite Day. There should also be a citation for Day where he is used before the dictionary.

Done.

The Hobbit 1977 Is there a way to reorder the words in the first sentence so we don't have a five eight word SEAOFBLUE?

Done.

In popular culture - This looks like it's part of the Forbes Fictional 15, which has an article. Would it be appropriate to mention the series here, at least to beef up the very short section?

Mentioned, and merged with the 'science' section which is also just 'cultural mentions'.

References - Looks like we might need some accessdates here.

Added.

Ref 6 - Is this an RS? It's written in the first person, suggesting it's a personal website.

The Anglo-Saxon Dictionary is a very well-established book. If you meant ref 16, that's a long-established media company reporting on the news; it seems to have numerous journalists.

Ref 15 - TV Tropes is listed as a generally unreliable source at WP:RSP

Removed.

Ref 17 - What makes Full Sail University Blog a RS?

Removed.

Ref 23 gives me a deadlink

Archive added.

Ref 29 gives me a deadlink with the statement not entirely in English

DOI works fine so removed the other URL.

External links Is this external link really necessary, since we include the exact same image in the article already?

Removed. It's at much better resolution which is probably why it was there.

Earwig turns up a positive, but it's a false positive mirror so nothing to worry about there. Hog Farm (talk) 21:32, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Noted.

Hog Farm - I think that's all done now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 23:10, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Chiswick Chap Two quick things - There's a cite error (looks like the first or only usage of a ref got removed) and the source I had questions about was the Tolkien Library source (14 I think right now). I must have messed up with the ref number on that one in my first comment. Is the Tolkien Library source reliable? It looks like a personal website to me, but I also have to admit I'm biased against sources who don't capitalize "I". Hog Farm (talk) 02:56, 27 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Repaired the ref. The TL source was only being used to identify the edition, which I've now done from Biblio, complete with archive link. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:59, 27 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Chiswick Chap - Looks good now, passing for GA. Hog Farm (talk) 19:36, 27 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Opening Sentences

Smaug (/smaʊɡ/[T 1]) is a dragon and the main antagonist in J. R. R. Tolkien's 1937 novel The Hobbit, his treasure and the mountain he lives in being the goal of the quest. He is a powerful and fearsome dragon

It feels like bad writing that Smaug is described as a dragon twice in quick succession.

I cannot think an acceptable change though, anyone have any ideas?Lava Lamps (talk) 21:25, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Use of tables and WP:ACCESS

Hello @Chiswick Chap: & Co. Today I made edits to the article to use {{Quote box}} for the two quotes (instead of tables) and to correctly mark up the other two tables (the cool literary comparisons) for WP:ACCESS. Unfortunately, my edits were reverted on the basis that, "it was better as it was!"

I'd like to you to (1) reconsider this revert, as it breaks accessibility of the article, and (2) explain why you think it was "better". I assume part of your rationale is that you are a sighted user and don't use a screen reader. Such users have to struggle with our pages when they are not properly marked up (such as the current version of this one). And there's no good excuse to use a single-cell table for anything, as you seem intent on doing with each of the quotes.

My changes were aimed at adding the correct and missing markup (e.g. scope="row"), and helping the tables respond dynamically no matter what device or browser the user is employing. We can't know how wide the user's screen is (or if they're using one!), so we should leave maximum flexibilty in things like line breaking.

Would you please consider reverting your revert? Thanks, — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 10:34, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:43, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"A vast red-golden dragon."

His colouring doesn't seem to be mentioned in the article - though the line "A vast red-golden dragon." is present in the Hobbit when they first sight him. Might be worth mentioning EdwardLane (talk) 11:37, 5 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]