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For the current list of potentially controversial requested moves, see § Current discussions.
"Wikipedia:RM" redirects here. For other uses, see Wikipedia:RM (disambiguation).
For detailed guidance on how and when to move a page, see Wikipedia:Moving a page.
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Requested moves is a process for requesting the retitling (moving) of an article, template, or project page on Wikipedia. For retitling files, categories and other items, see When not to use this page.

Please read the article titling policy and the guideline regarding primary topics before moving a page or requesting a page move.

Any autoconfirmed user can use the Move function to perform most moves (see Help:How to move a page). If you have no reason to expect a dispute concerning a move, be bold and move the page. However, it may not always be possible or desirable to do this:

  • Technical reasons may prevent a move; for example, a page may already exist at the target title and require deletion, or the page may be protected from moves. See: § Requesting technical moves.
  • Requests to revert recent, undiscussed, controversial moves may be made at WP:RM/TR. If the new name has not become the stable title, the undiscussed move will be reverted. If the new name has become the stable title, a requested move will be needed to determine the article's proper location.
  • A title may be disputed, and discussion may be necessary to reach consensus: see § Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves. The requested moves process is not mandatory, and sometimes an informal discussion at the article's talk page can help reach consensus.
  • A page should not be moved and a new move discussion should not be opened when there is already an open move request on a talk page. Instead, please participate in the open discussion.
  • Unregistered and new (not yet autoconfirmed) users are unable to move pages.

Requests are generally processed after seven days. If consensus to move the page is reached at or after this time, a reviewer will carry out the request. If there is a consensus not to move the page, the request will be closed as "not moved". When consensus remains unclear, the request may be relisted to allow more time for consensus to develop, or the discussion may be closed as "no consensus". See Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions for more details on the process.

Wikipedia:Move review can be used to contest the outcome of a move request as long as all steps are followed. If a discussion on the closer's talk page does not resolve an issue, then a move review will evaluate the close of the move discussion to determine whether or not the contested close was reasonable and consistent with the spirit and intent of common practice, policies, and guidelines.

When not to use this page

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Separate processes exist for moving certain types of pages, and for changes other than page moves:

Undiscussed moves

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Autoconfirmed editors may move a page without discussion if all of the following apply:

  • No article exists at the new target title;
  • There has been no previous discussion about the title of the page that expressed any objection to a new title; and
  • It seems unlikely that anyone would reasonably disagree with the move.

If you disagree with a prior bold move, and the new title has not been in place for a long time, you may revert the move yourself. If you cannot revert the move for technical reasons, then you may request a technical move.

Move wars are disruptive, so if you make a bold move and it is reverted, do not make the move again. Instead, follow the procedures laid out in § Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves.

Requesting technical moves

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If you are unable to complete a move for technical reasons, you can request technical help below. This is the correct method if you tried to move a page, but you got an error message saying something like "You do not have permission to move this page, for the following reasons:..." or "The/This page could not be moved, for the following reason:..."

  • To list a technical request: edit the Uncontroversial technical requests subsection and insert the following code at the bottom of the list, filling in pages and reason: 
    {{subst:RMassist|current page title|new title|reason=edit summary for the move}}
    This will automatically insert a bullet and include your signature. Please do not edit the article's talk page.
  • If you object to a proposal listed in the uncontroversial technical requests section, please move the request to the Contested technical requests section, append a note on the request elaborating on why, and sign with ~~~~. Consider pinging the requester to let them know about the objection.
  • If your technical request is contested, or if a contested request is left untouched without reply, create a requested move on the article talk and remove the request from the section here. The fastest and easiest way is to click the "discuss" button at the request, save the talk page, and remove the entry on this page.

Technical requests

Uncontroversial technical requests

  • Saint Endelienta → Endelient (currently a redirect back to Saint Endelienta) (move · discuss) – more concise; Nicholas Orme's The Saints of Cornwall and the Oxford Dictionary of Saints give her name as "Endelient", because the -a is a later Latin addition. there are roughly the same amount of google search results for both versions. results for "Endelienta" seem to be more focused on an arts organization of that name than on the medieval saint. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 22:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ram Khamhaeng → Ramkhamhaeng (currently a redirect back to Ram Khamhaeng) (move · discuss) – I've personally never seen Ramkhamhaeng spelled as two separate words in English (speaking as someone from Thailand, and it isn't parsed as two words in Thai either). It's almost always a single word, as seen in Ramkhamhaeng University. The single word spelling is also used in books such as David K. Wyatt's "Thailand: Short History" or Baker’s and Phongpaichit’s “A History of Ayutthaya” (and a Google Ngram search should show the single word spelling is more popular as well) Stantic (talk) 02:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requests to revert undiscussed moves

Contested technical requests

@Mtnguideben Appears contentious. Will probably benefit from a full RM discussion to see community input. Raladic (talk) 03:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator needed

Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves

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The discussion process is used for potentially controversial moves. A move is potentially controversial if either of the following applies:

  • there has been any past debate about the best title for the page;
  • someone could reasonably disagree with the move.

Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested. For technical move requests, such as to correct obvious typographical errors, see Requesting technical moves. The technical moves procedure can also be used for uncontroversial moves when the requested title is occupied by an existing article.

Do not create a new move request when one is already open on the same talk page. Instead, consider contributing to the open discussion if you would like to propose another alternative. Multiple closed move requests may be on the same page, but each should have a unique section heading.

Do not create a move request to rename one or more redirects. Redirects cannot be used as current titles in requested moves.

Requesting a single page move

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To request a single page move, click on the "New section" (or "Add topic") tab of the talk page of the article you want moved, without adding a new subject/header, inserting this code: 

{{subst:requested move|New name|reason=Place here your rationale for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines, and providing evidence in support where appropriate. If your reasoning includes search engine results, please prioritize searches limited to reliable sources (e.g. books, news, scholarly papers) over other web results. You don't need to add your signature at the end, as this template will do so automatically.}}

Replace New name with the requested new name of the page (or with a simple question mark, if you want more than one possible new name to be considered). The template will automatically create the heading "Requested move 14 November 2024" and sign the post for you.

There is no need to edit the article in question. Once the above code is added to the Talk page, a bot will automatically add the following notification at the top of the affected page:

Unlike other request processes on Wikipedia, such as Requests for comment, nominations need not be neutral. Make your point as best you can; use evidence (such as Google Ngrams and pageview statistics) and refer to applicable policies and guidelines, especially our article titling policy and the guideline on disambiguation and primary topics.

WikiProjects may subscribe to Article alerts to receive RM notifications. For example, Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Article alerts/Requested moves is transcluded to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography. RMCD bot notifies many of the other Wikiprojects listed on the talk page of the article to be moved to invite project members to participate in the RM discussion. Requesters should feel free to notify any other Wikiproject or noticeboard that might be interested in the move request, as long as this notification is neutral.

Single page move on a different talk page

Occasionally, a move request must be made on a talk page other than the talk page of the page to be moved. For example, a request to rename Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Resources to Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Reviewing and templates would need to take place at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation because the talk page of the project page to be moved, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/Resources, is a redirect to that centralized discussion page. In this type of case, the requested move should be made using the following code: 

{{subst:requested move|reason=(the reason for the page move goes here).|current1=(present title of page to be renamed)|new1=(proposed title of page)}}

The |1= unnamed parameter is not used. The |current1= and |new1= parameters are used similar to multiple page moves described below.

Requesting multiple page moves

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A single template may be used to request multiple related moves. On one of the talk pages of the affected pages, create a request and format it as below. A sample request for three page moves is shown here (for two page moves, omit the lines for current3 and new3). For four page moves, add lines for current4 and new4, and so on. There is no technical limit on the number of multiple move requests, but before requesting very large multi-moves, consider whether a naming convention should be changed first. Discuss that change on the talk page for the naming convention, e.g., Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (sportspeople).

To request a multiple page move, edit at the bottom of the talk page of the article you chose for your request, without adding a new header, inserting this code: 

{{subst:requested move
| current1 = Current title of page 1 (this parameter can be omitted for discussions hosted on a page that is proposed to be moved)
| new1     = New title for page 1 with the talk page hosting this discussion
| current2 = Current title of page 2
| new2     = New title for page 2
| current3 = Current title of page 3
| new3     = New title for page 3
| reason   = Place here your rationale for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines, and providing evidence in support where appropriate. If your reasoning includes search engine results, please prioritize searches limited to reliable sources (e.g. books, news, scholarly papers) over other web results. You don't need to add your signature at the end, as this template will do so automatically.
}}
See also: Template:Requested move/extended blank

For example, to propose moving the articles Wikipedia and Wiki, put this template on Talk:Wikipedia with current1 set to Wikipedia and current2 set to Wiki. The discussion for all affected articles is held on the talk page of the article where the template is placed (Talk:Wikipedia). Do not sign the request with ~~~~, since the template does this automatically (so if you sign it yourself there will be two copies of your signature at the end of the request). Do not skip pairs of numbers.

RMCD bot automatically places a notice section on the talk page of all pages that are included in your request except the one hosting the discussion, to call attention to the move discussion that is in progress and to suggest that all discussion for all of the pages included in the request should take place at that one hosting location.

For multi-move discussions hosted on a page which is itself proposed to be moved, it is not necessary to include the |current1=Current title of page 1 for the page hosting the discussion, as its current title can be inferred automatically. Occasionally the discussions for significant multi-move requests may be hosted on WikiProject talk pages or other pages in Project namespace, in which case it is necessary to include |current1= to indicate the first article to be moved.

Request all associated moves explicitly

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Please list every move that you wish to have made in your request. For example, if you wish to move Cricket (disambiguation) to Cricket because you do not believe the sport is the primary topic for the search term "Cricket", then you actually want to move two pages, both Cricket (disambiguation) and Cricket. Thus you must list proposed titles for each page affected by your request. For example, you might propose:

If a new title is not proposed for the sport, it is more difficult to achieve consensus for a new title for that article. A move request that does not show what to do with the material at its proposed target, such as:

is incomplete. Such requests may be completed as a request to decide the best new title by discussion.

If a disambiguation page is in the way of a move, the request may be completed as proposing to add (disambiguation).

Template usage examples and notes
Talk page tag Text that will be shown (and usage notes)
{{subst:Requested move|new|reason=why}}
links talk edit
Requested move 14 November 2024

Wikipedia:Requested moves → New – why Example (talk) 08:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Use when the proposed new title is given.
Do not sign this template—this tag is auto-signed when substituted. Be sure to use the subst:.
This tag should be placed at the beginning of the section containing the relevant discussion.

{{subst:Requested move|?|reason=why}}
Requested move 14 November 2024

Wikipedia:Requested moves → ? – why Example (talk) 08:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Use when the proposed new title is not known.
Do not sign this template—this tag is auto-signed when substituted. Be sure to use the subst:.
This tag should be placed at the beginning of the section containing the relevant discussion.

{{subst:Requested move|new|reason=why|talk=yes}}
Requested move 14 November 2024

Wikipedia:Requested moves → New – why Example (talk) 08:52, 14 November 2024‎ (UTC)[reply]

Survey
Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this subsection with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
Discussion
Any additional comments:



This template adds subsections for survey and discussion.
Do not sign this template—this tag is auto-signed when substituted. Be sure to use the subst:
Click the "New Section" tab on the talk page and leave the Subject/headline blank, as the template by default automatically creates the heading.

{{subst:Requested move|new1=x|current2=y|new2=z|reason=why}}
Requested move 14 November 2024

– why Example (talk) 08:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do not sign this template—this tag is auto-signed when substituted.
Be sure to use the subst: and place this tag at the beginning of the section containing the relevant discussion.
Add additional related move requests in pairs (|current3= and |new3=, |current4= and |new4=, etc.).

{{subst:Requested move|new1=?|current2=y|new2=?|reason=why}}
Requested move 14 November 2024

– why Example (talk) 08:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Commenting on a requested move

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All editors are welcome to contribute to the discussion regarding a requested page move. There are a number of standards that Wikipedians should practice in such discussions:

  • When editors recommend a course of action, they write Support or Oppose in bold text, which is done by surrounding the word with three single quotes on each side, e.g. '''Support'''.
  • Comments or recommendations are added on a new bulleted line (that is, starting with *) and signed by adding ~~~~ to the end. Responses to another editor are threaded and indented using multiple bullets.
  • The article itself should be reviewed before any recommendation is made; do not base recommendations solely on the information supplied by other editors. It may also help to look at the article's edit history. However, please read the earlier comments and recommendations, as well as prior move requests. They may contain relevant arguments and useful information.
  • Vested interests in the article should be disclosed per Wikipedia:Conflict of interest § How to disclose a COI.

When participating, please consider the following:

  • Editors should make themselves familiar with the article titling policy at Wikipedia:Article titles.
  • Other important guidelines that set forth community norms for article titles include Wikipedia:Disambiguation, specific naming conventions, and the manual of style.
  • The debate is not a vote; please do not make recommendations that are not sustained by arguments.
  • Explain how the proposed article title meets or contravenes policy and guidelines rather than merely stating that it does so.
  • Nomination already implies that the nominator supports the name change, and nominators should refrain from repeating this recommendation on a separate bulleted line.[a]
  • Do not make conflicting recommendations. If you change your mind, use strike-through to retract your previous statement by enclosing it between <s> and </s> after the bullets, and de-bold the struck words, as in "• Support Oppose".

Please remember that reasonable editors will sometimes disagree, but that arguments based in policy, guidelines, and evidence have more weight than unsupported statements. When an editor offers an argument that does not explain how the move request is consistent with policies and guidelines, a reminder to engage in constructive, on-topic discussion may be useful. On the other hand, a pattern of responding to requests with groundless opinion, proof by assertion, and ignoring content guidelines may become disruptive. If a pattern of disruptive behavior persists after efforts are made to correct the situation through dialogue, please consider using a dispute resolution process.

Closing a requested move

Any uninvolved editor in good standing may close a move request. Please read the closing instructions for information on how to close a move request. The Simple guide to closing RM discussions details how to actually close a requested move discussion.

Relisting a requested move

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Relisting a discussion moves the request out of the backlog up to the current day in order to encourage further input. The decision to relist a discussion is best left to uninvolved experienced editors upon considering, but declining, to close the discussion. In general, discussions should not be relisted more than once before properly closing.[b] Users relisting a debate which has already been relisted, or relisting a debate with a substantial discussion, should write a short explanation on why they did not consider the debate sufficient to close. While there is no consensus forbidding participation in a requested move discussion after relisting it, many editors consider it an inadvisable form of supervote. If you want to relist a discussion and then participate in it, be prepared to explain why you think it was appropriate.

Relisting should be done using {{subst:RM relist}}, which automatically includes the relister's signature, and which must be placed at the very end of the initial request after the move requester's signature (and subsequent relisters' signatures).

When a relisted discussion reaches a resolution, it may be closed at any time according to the closing instructions; there is no required length of time to wait before closing a relisted discussion.

If discussion has become stale, or it seems that discussion would benefit from more input of editors versed in the subject area, consider more widely publicizing the discussion, such as by notifying WikiProjects of the discussion using the template {{RM notification}}. Banners placed at the top of the talk page hosting the move request can often be used to identify WikiProjects suitable for notification.

Notes

  1. ^ A nominator making a procedural nomination with which they may not agree is free to add a bulleted line explaining their actual position. Additional detail, such as sources, may also be provided in an additional bullet point if its inclusion in the nomination statement would make the statement unwieldy. Please remember that the entire nomination statement appears on the list on this page.
  2. ^ Despite this, discussions are occasionally relisted more than once.

Current discussions

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This section lists all requests filed or identified as potentially controversial which are currently under discussion.

This list is also available in a page-link-first format and in table format. 83 discussions have been relisted.

November 14, 2024

  • (Discuss) – Moira Barton → Moira Dingle – This deserves a review. Three years after the last move request was closed, the Google search results now show "Moira Dingle Emmerdale" as having more than 130,000, while "Moira Barton Emmerdale" has 92,000. News results are also overwhelmingly in favour of Dingle. The character has been credited as Moira Dingle for more than ten years, there is no hint of the character ever reverting back, and in the show Cain and Moira are very much leading the Dingle family now in the wake of Zak's death. It's time to move the article to reflect this. Ooh, Fruity (talk) 00:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 13, 2024

  • (Discuss) – Stadion Miejski (Białystok) → Białystok Municipal Stadium – I am submitting this request to revert the article title of the stadium in Białystok to its previous title, Białystok Municipal Stadium in light of recent actions by the user FromCzech. The move to the Polish-language title Stadion Miejski (Białystok) was made unilaterally and appears inconsistent with Wikipedia's guidelines, specifically WP:UE. This guideline encourages the use of English translations where appropriate to maintain accessibility for the global readership. FromCzech has argued for the name change without prior discussion, potentially as a reaction to a naming debate on Lokotrans Aréna that I initiated. This recent move does not reflect a consensus, and it also disrupts the established consistency within the "Football venues in Poland" category, where nearly all stadium names are translated into English. Notable examples include Father Władysław Augustynek Stadium, Gdynia Municipal Stadium, Kielce Municipal Stadium, and Raków Municipal Stadium. I urge that the title "Białystok Municipal Stadium" be restored to uphold Wikipedia’s principles of consistency and transparency, while also preventing this matter from being affected by personal disputes or editing motivated by anything other than Wikipedia's editorial standards. Paradygmaty (talk) 21:09, 5 November 2024 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Fischer random chess → Chess 960 – "Chess 960" is the WP:COMMONNAME for this chess variant, based on press coverage (newspapers.com articles found from the last 20 years: 82 mentioning "Chess 960" and 65 mentioning Fischer Random Chess, many mentioning both), major chess sites including chess.com and lichess.org, recent books, and chess organizations. Other Wikipedias have also started to move away from "Fischer" in the title with 20 out of 39 using "960" in the title instead. While Fischer Random Chess is still often used as a term, it is no longer the most common name. In recent years, "Fischer Random Chess" is typically mentioned only once in reliable sources, often parenthetically or as a secondary term, with "Chess 960" used for the remainder of the article, book, etc. While the article does discuss several other variants, the focus of the article is Chess 960 and it makes sense to keep the article history connected to Chess 960 as a topic. As to "Chess 960" vs. "Chess960", including the space seems to be more frequent based on newspapers.com and Google searches, but both are often used. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 00:37, 29 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 06:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:26, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Rhythm and Hues Studios → Rhythm & Hues Studios – The use of the ampersand is required per MOS:&: But retain an ampersand when it is a legitimate part of the style of a proper noun, the title of a work, or a trademark, such as in Up & Down or AT&T. This stylization is the most used in reliable sources. 𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 18:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Kahina → Dihya al-Kahina – Based on my research in the above thread, I think Dihya al-Kahina is a more accurate and precise name, as Dihya appears to have been a Berber given name and Kahina is simply a title or honorific meaning "prophetess." Most sources use both names when referring to her. Andre🚐 09:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Mediterranean Basin → Mediterranean basin – According to the MOS:CAPS guideline "only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia". When we look at an ngram however - [3] - which analyses book usage of this term, we see that far from it being consistently capitalized, in fact a large majority of sources render it in sentence case. I had initially moved this as uncontroversial in August, but it's now been reverted by User:Vic Park with the rationale of "Proper grammar" so I'm now requesting it formally. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 09:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – John Curtis (Utah politician) → John Curtis – Moving this here. The Utah politician was just elected to the U.S. Senate and, like prior politicians elevated to a higher role or in leadership, is both prominent and popular (in terms of pageviews) to have the non-disambiguated page name. The now-Senator has averaged 1232 pageviews daily over the past month, compared to 55 for all the other "John Curtis" pages combined. The median figures are 716 vs 46, respectively. Some degree of recency here, but now as a U.S. Senator, it is likely this discrepancy only grows. Debartolo2917 (talk) 06:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 12, 2024

  • (Discuss) – Michelle Chang (Tekken) → Michelle and Julia Chang – While the AfD for Julia Chang urged the article to be merged into here, with the development info being added to the page and looking over the sources, it has become increasingly clear that both subjects are intertwined, sharing a lot of notability but a clear line of design history with Julia being the similar but successor character to Michelle. The references in the reception section also tend to refer to both for purposes of examining the characters in the scope of Native American representation in gaming. I feel moving to a jointly-titled article would help reduce potential confusion and allow both subjects to be covered properly. Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:03, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Georgian Jews → History of the Jews in Georgia (country) – I was asked by IZAK to make this as a technical move, but I think it needs confirmation via RM. These articles are standardized at titles beginning "History of the Jews in...", but there have been various alternative endings to the title proposed and/or used at various times, including "History of the Jews in the Republic of Georgia" (this isn't a great one because Georgia obviously has a much longer history than any single political entity), "History of the Jews in Georgia", etc. What should the end of this title be? Thanks. asilvering (talk) 20:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Ross Stores → Ross Dress for Less – There seems to be a favor for calling it "Ross Dress for Less". I am presenting more evidence than last time. To wit: * If you search for a store on Google Maps, every store is labeled "Ross Dress for Less", and Google Maps usually defers to the most common nomenclature. * Independent news articles such as this, this, this, and this use "Ross Dress for Less", whereas searching "Ross Stores" tends to give press releases, corporate directories, and more financial-leaning sources. * Directories for shopping malls which have one, such as this, use the full name "Ross Dress for Less". * The company's official Facebook and Instagram accounts both use "Ross Dress for Less". * The copyright for the logo includes the "Dress for Less" part, suggesting it is part of the name and not just a slogan. I could not find any instances where just the "Ross" part of the logo was used, further suggesting "Dress for Less" is officially part of the company name. Despite what was said in the previous RM, I don't consider the "Dress for Less" part promotional in tone if it's legally part of the name any more so than the "dollar" in Dollar General is promotional. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 18:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Tamyig script → Tamyig – @Glennznl The reason I redirected this to Tamyig rather than the other way around is that we don't usually include words like "script" in titles unless they're needed for disambiguation, and since someone had already copy-pasted the article there a few months ago, it wasn't possible to simply move this article there. However, I appreciate that this version was created first, so by rights should be kept as the main article for the sake of attribution. In any event, I therefore propose that we move this article to Tamyig. Theknightwho (talk) 09:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Allegations of United States support for the Khmer Rouge → United States support for the Khmer Rouge – Reopening discussion. According to the above backlog, editors have overwhelmingly voiced support for the requested move. I fail to understand @Estar8806's decision to close the discussion and sideline the consensus that is apparent. As I wrote him on this user talk: Multiple statements in the article are factual and undisputed and correspond to US support of the Khmer Rouge: 1) U.S. voted for the Khmer Rouge and the Khmer Rouge-dominated Coalition Government of Democratic Kampuchea (CGDK) to retain Cambodia's United Nations (UN) seat until as late as 1993, long after the Khmer Rouge had been mostly deposed by Vietnam. = diplomatic US support 2) I encourage the Chinese to support Pol Pot, said Zbigniew Brzezinski, the national security adviser at the time. The question was how to help the Cambodian people. Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him, but China could. = diplomatic US support has admitted by a member of the then US government (quoted here from the NYTimes source of ref 20) I will not even go on investigate the claims of political scholars quoted in the wiki article since this much is already tantamount to US support. NokGradten (talk) 08:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 11, 2024

  • (Discuss) – Siege of Gerona (disambiguation) → Sieges of Gerona – Several issues I hope to address with these proposed moves. First, it makes little sense to have the "second" and "third" sieges as titles but to call the first event a battle; of the three is was the most like a battle, but the distinction is confusing in this case. It does seem that [ordinal] siege of Gerona is the most common manner of disambiguating the various events. If the first segment were to carry the WP:COMMONNAME "Battle" then it should not carry a parenthetical qualifier, being already WP:NATURALly disambiguated and the primary topic for the term; the base name Battle of Girona already redirects there and is WP:MISPLACED. Second, when used alone without additional context, "Siege of Gerona" does seem to refer to the successful final siege as a primary topic, and currently redirects there. I am proposing to leave this as a primary redirect and turn the disambiguation page into a set index at the plural, but I would also support having the set index in place of the redirect at the singular. Third, while I personally feel "Siege" in these titles is part of the proper noun, use in sources is mixed, and most "siege" articles on enwiki do not take siege as part of the proper noun (in contrast to "Battle of..." which is almost always part of the proper noun; I don't see the distinction) and WP:MILCAPS is vague, so for now let's go for being the most consistent. Lastly, as for the Girona vs. Gerona issue, there has been past move reversions and discussion about this (e.g. Talk:Third siege of Girona#Girona/Gerona), and we should reach consensus here. I am open to either spelling, but am proposing a return to Gerona because it does seem a majority of reliable sources use this spelling, and that is the criterion upon which we should base our choice. On the other hand, the modern spelling of the city is the Catalan spelling. Regardless, the set index/disambiguation page should use the same spelling as the articles. Overall, I am open to discussing and considering any and all variations of this proposal, but the status quo should not be kept. Mdewman6 (talk) 04:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:07, 10 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Hiawatha (train) → Hiawatha (MILW train) – These paranthetical names aren't quite as clear and precise as they can be since multiple other trains have used these names throughout their history. The simple parenthetical "(train)" isn't really enough to distinguish these different trains from each other. The first article is solely about the multiple trains operated by the Milwaukee Road which predate the current Amtrak train along the corridor of the same name. The name could be changed to "trains" to indicate the multitude of different trains covered in the article. The Amtrak/Via Maple Leaf isn't the only named train with a termini in Toronto, especially the historical Lehigh Valley Railroad train, which also ran to New York City, albeit with a different alignment. The name of the article could also be changed to maybe "Amtrak/Via", but the train from my understanding is moreso grouped with Amtrak. The Amtrak Palmetto is the successor of the ACL train of the same name. The fourth article is about a completely unrelated historical ATSF train operating in California separate from the current Amtrak train. The Wolverine is also the name of a historical New York Central Railroad train. Nonetheless, I don't necessarily believe in these names as final as I want them to be subject to change, and not all of them need to be implemented. I will say that if we decide that the simple parenthetical of "(train)" is sufficient in describing the articles in question, then perhaps instead the article titles for the Amtrak Pere Marquette, Silver Star, and Valley Flyer could have "Amtrak" dropped from their parentheticals for naming consistency across all Amtrak train articles. Thoughts? OrdinaryScarlett (talk) 06:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting.  ASUKITE 15:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 13:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Theodor-Fliedner-Gymnasium → Theodor Fliedner Gymnasium – Per English language names (see WP:ENGLISHTITLE). In German the name, as a compound noun (CN), is treated as a single lexical unit and run together giving us words such as der Zungenbrecher for the English equivalent "the tongue twister". In German Wikipedia the article for this school is written with dashes to separate out the parts of the CN, which is usual practice where the compound noun contains a name but is a single lexical unit - a CN. English does not treat compound nouns this way. As for "tongue twister," the nouns can be split into a noun phrase. So the correct English name for this school is Theodor Fliedner Gymnasium. High school could replace Gymnasium, but as a Gymnasium is a specific type of high school, I suggest we keep it. Nevertheless there are sources actually calling it Theodor Fliedner high school in English. E.g. [5] I bold moved to the English name, as I had said should be done in the recent deletion discussion [6], and it was reverted.[7] Thus this move discussion. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 10, 2024

  • (Discuss) – Lazy cisticola → Rock-loving cisticola – This is the new name adopted by version 14.2 of the IOC bird list. Background: On Wikipedia we create an article for each species of bird. English Wikipedia follows the online list of world birds maintained by Frank Gill, Pamela C. Rasmussen and David Donsker on behalf of the International Ornithological Committee (IOC) which is available here. In August 2024 version 14.2 was released. This included many changes which are part of an effort to align the taxonomy of the three major world lists: IOC, Clements/eBird and Birdlife/IUCN. In the previous release (IOC 14.1) the Lazy cistocola (Cisticola aberrans) included 4 subspecies: nyika, lurio, aberrans and minor. The Rock-loving cisticola (Cisticola emini) also included 4 subspecies: admiralis, petrophilus, emini and bailunduensis The present release (IOC 14.2) lumps the Lazy cistocola with the Rock-loving cisticola and at the same time splits off the subspecies bailunduensis to create a new species, the Huambo cisticola (Cisticola bailunduensis). When making the lump, the IOC chose to use the "more informative" name "Rock-loving cisticola" for the combined species rather than retaining the name Lazy cistocola. The October 2024 update of the Clements/eBird list includes similar changes to the taxonomy: see here Wikipedia didn't have an article for the Rock-loving cisticola - instead there was a redirect. I intend to create an article for the Huambo cisticola. Aa77zz (talk) 22:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Tule Lake National Monument → Tule Lake concentration camp – It is unclear to me why this page is called "Tule Lake National Monument." It’s primarily about the concentration camp/war relocation center, and only a single, relatively small section is dedicated to its designation as a monument. It’s not just a euphemistic designation, it’s straight-up confusing. When I was searching for this page I had to check repeatedly that I was in the right place. It’s like if we called the main Auschwitz concentration camp article "Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum." As for what it should be called, I think that there are advantages and disadvantages to "Tule Lake War Relocation Center," "Tule Lake concentration camp," and "Tule Lake internment camp." Google Ngram Viewer shows no results at all for "Tule Lake National Monument," but does show results for all three of these terms. "Tule Lake War Relocation Center" fits with the formats used for most of the other camps (Gila River, Granada, Heart Mountain, Jerome, Poston, Rohwer, Topaz), but may be a bit euphemistic and doesn’t necessarily cover other names for the camp ("Tule Lake Segregation Center") and other areas on site that weren’t specifically in the relocation center (such as Camp Tulelake, an isolation facility within the overall camp structure). Perhaps using "War Relocation Center" to disambiguate between the overall camp and the isolation facility would be advantageous, though. "Tule Lake War Relocation Center" is also the most common result on Google Ngram Viewer. "Tule Lake concentration camp" may be a bit controversial, but "concentration camp" is the terminology used by Densho, which is generally considered an authority on this subject. It is the terminology recommended by the Manzanar committee, whose recommendations were adopted by the JACL (Japanese American Citizens League) in 2013. It’s also the terminology used on the FA-rated Manzanar page and would cover other names for the camp/relocation center and areas of the site that weren’t strictly within the relocation center. It is, however, the least common result on Google Ngram Viewer. "Tule Lake internment camp" would also cover other names for/sections of the camp and is a commonly used term, possibly more diplomatic than concentration camp but also more euphemistic. I don’t know that diplomacy is more important than precision/accuracy when covering a human rights violation, but still, it’s better than "National Monument" on both counts. In terms of the Ngram Viewer, it is between "Tule Lake War Relocation Center" and "Tule Lake concentration camp" in its usage. I personally favor “Tule Lake concentration camp,” so that’s the name I put in on the request, but am open to any of the three pending feedback. What do folks think? Spookyaki (talk) 16:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 9, 2024

  • (Discuss) – Pot-holder → ? – "Pot-holder" with a hyphen seems to be by far the least used version. Unfortunate, both pot holder and potholder are very close in usage: Google ngrams, Google Trends (shows "pot holder" being about 50% more searched for than "potholder" in the past few years, before then they were nearly identical), 1,970 Google scholar for "pot holder" (which includes pot-holder but a quick skim finds "pot holder" far out numbers it), 1,450 Google scholar for "potholder". Dictionaries that I looked at are 5-2 in favor of "potholder": "potholder": Collins (which labels it as British), Cambridge (which labels it as "mainly US"), Oxford Learner's (Which labels it as "(North American English)", American Heritage, and Dictionary.com; while for "pot holder": M-W; OED. I'm not a huge fan of just going by dictionary but perhaps give how similar ngrams and such are, I'd lean toward "potholder" which is also the direction ngramas has started to move toward, although "pot holder" was much more common from the 1860s until the late 1960s. I also don't think there seems to be sufficient English variety affinity for either spaced or not to justify using the uncommon hyphenated version. Skynxnex (talk) 16:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 8, 2024

  • (Discuss) – Ghosts (American TV series) → Ghosts (2021 TV series) – Back in 2022 this page was renamed as part of a larger proposal that included country of origin as a distinguishing factor. The close was contested and have since been reverted for the other two articles, so the rationale for this page's renaming is no longer valid. We have three Ghost TV shows; they don't come from three different countries so country of origin is an insufficient disambiguator; however they were all made in different years - all three shows should be disambiguated by year. 84.217.39.2 (talk) 18:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. JuniperChill (talk) 22:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Murder of pregnant women → Pregnancy and femicide – I think the page should be named "Pregnancy and femicide" rather than "Murder of pregnant women" because, throughout the research I conducted to update and expand upon this page, the importance of designating this type of homicide as gender-based, and therefore a femicide, in order to properly address it and prevent further cases, was repeatedly emphasized. I therefore believe that changing the title to reflect this notion is crucial. Additionally, considering studies on pregnancy-associated femicide not only comprise the period of pregnancy, but the postpartum period as well, I feel that the current title does not accurately reflect the subject. Samdlb123 (talk) 03:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 17:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Wikipedia:Outing (essay) → ? – This essay currently has rather poor visibility, and I believe its title is to blame. For one, adding a hatnote to the target of Wikipedia:Outing and Wikipedia:OUTING to refer back to this essay seems like it would cause more confusion than help, especially given the already-large stack of hatnotes at that target. For two, this essay may be outdated, given it was created in 2006 and its most recent edit was in 2013; due to this, it seems some of the claims in the essay may be inaccurate since Wikipedia has advanced some of its policies since then. In a nutshell, I'm opening this move request since a new title for this page is a start, though not necessarily the end nor the only fix. Steel1943 (talk) 09:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 7, 2024

Elapsed listings

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The 7-day listing period has elapsed. Items below may be closed if there's a consensus, or if discussion has run its course and consensus could not be achieved.
  • (Discuss) – Tajiks of Xinjiang → Chinese Tajiks – In previous discussions over a decade and a half ago, the main points of contention were: "Which name(s) is more commonly used in reliable sources (i.e. WP:COMMONNAME)?" and "Which name(s) is appropriate, given that 'Tajik' is a misnomer because the group is actually ethnic Pamiris?" Since the discussions in 2009, scholarly articles and books have generally been split in usage of "Tajiks of Xinjiang" and "Chinese Tajiks". Neither name solves the second problem, and adding "Pamiris" in parentheses isn't necessary, in my opinion. The group itself has a distinct history and culture, and it is not merely a situation of Pamiris being on a different side of an international border (i.e. not Tajikistan). The Chinese government uses the term "Chinese Tajiks" in English to distinguish the group from Tajiks and Tajikistanis in China. It's also worth noting that members of this ethnic group have travelled and made homes elsewhere in China, so it doesn't make sense to have an article title that limits them to one specific part of the country. This article isn't about Tajiks or Pamiris who live in Xinjiang, but a distinct ethnicity that originated from the region. The article should therefore be renamed and moved to "Chinese Tajiks". Yue🌙 01:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 17:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Backlog

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Elapsed listings fall into the backlog after 24 hours. Consider relisting 8-day-old discussions with minimal participation.
  • (Discuss) – Hasmah Mohamad Ali → Siti Hasmah Mohamad Ali – The article in question was originally titled 'Siti Hasmah Mohamad Ali'. An editor renamed the title to 'Hasmah Mohamad Ali' without any previous discussion. The BLP's name change has yet to gain currency in the reliable mainstream sources. The old name/title should be maintaind in the meantime.
    Shortcut
    Perusal of government record as far as 1975 also shows 'Dr. (Puan) Siti Hasmah binti Haji Mohd Ali'. [1]

References

  1. ^ https://www.istiadat.gov.my/semakan-penerima-darjah-kebesaran-bintang-dan-pingat/
Sreeking (talk) 00:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 07:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Tel al-Sultan attack → ? – I am bringing this discussion back up with a stronger argument and after the Good Article review has concluded. I have identified many sources calling this incident a massacre. There are likely more, so feel free to add any. They include The Guardian (opinion piece), Morrocco World News, The Peninsula Qatar, Truthout, Al-Ahram, Daily Sabah, Jacobin, Vox (Not explicitly, though cites someone calling it one, says it’s a slaughter in headline, and says Israel is massacring Palestinians), TRT World (Partially reliable) Le Monde, Middle East Eye, El Pais, The New Arab, Mondoweiss, Gulf News, Huffington Post (Disputed reliability), The Intercept, The Nation (opinion piece), Aljazeera and Aljazeera Arabic. Many mainstream media articles also cite people who describe the attack as a massacre, though do not explicitly claim it to be so. Humanitarian groups Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor and Doctors Without Borders have described the incident as a massacre. Officials of Colombia,[37] Saudi Arabia,[38] the State of Palestine,[39] and the Organization of Islamic States[40] have called the attack a massacre. United Nations Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories Francesca Albanese has called it a massacre.[41] Additionally, Hamas and the Palestinian Civil Defense in Rafah have called the incident a massacre.[42] Last time, there was also the issue of whether the attacks were intentional, as “massacre” is a loaded word that may imply intentionally killing civilians. Firstly, NYT quotes an expert who suggests Israel may have tried to mitigate harm but accepted civilian casualties,[43] and an MSNBC analysis indicates Israel should have known there were civilians in the area.[44] Al-Jazeera’s fact checking agency[45] and India Today[46] think so, and suggestions by Israel that a weapons dump exploded have been refuted by the New York Times, who found no evidence of the claim.[47] Egypt[48] and the PA[49] also allege that it was intentional. There is still the issue of what exactly to call the article in any case. We have some options:
    A: Keep it the same, Tel al-Sultan _.
    B: Rafah tent camp _.
    C: Just "Rafah _" Personisinsterest (talk) 21:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – 2021 Western Kentucky tornado → 2021 Mayfield tornado – The new copy-edited lede changed by @Baffle gab1978 brought to me the realization that Wikipedia is one of the few places on the web referring to this event by this name. As the majority of coverage was in Mayfield, it has informally become known as the Mayfield tornado by sources, and as such Wikipedia should in theory call it that too per WP:COMMONNAME. Also, per WP:Naming conventions (events), [i]f more than one name is in common use, the name used by NOAA or an official weather agency should take precedence except in extraordinary circumstances, and there should be redirects from any other names. This source from the NCEI, a roundup of December 2021 events, states [t]he historic “Mayfield tornado,” as its commonly called, was on the ground for 165.7 miles, had peak winds of 190 mph, and resulted in 55+ fatalities, and as far as I'm aware there's no NOAA/NWS sources calling it the "Western Kentucky tornado" (p.s., I'm using this usa.gov search tool to query this, and that returned 0 for "Western Kentucky tornado"). Strictly off policy, I would boldly move this, but as this is one of the most important tornado articles in today's Wikipedia, I thought I'd start a discussion. Departure– (talk) 00:44, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Discuss) – Minnesota Fats → Minnesota Fats (character) – Why isn't the article at Minnesota Fats? That is by far the most common name used here to refer to him. Every source in the article uses Minnesota Fats, to the point even his NYT obit called him that and not Rudolph Wanderone, and the word "Wanderone" is hardly used in the text of the article instead of "Fats". Sure, he named himself after a fictional character, but inbound links and page views suggest most people looking for "Minnesota Fats" are looking for the pool player and not the character. It's blatantly obvious Wanderone's legacy has far outlasted that of the fictional character from whom he derived his name. This seems a crystal-clear violation of WP:COMMONNAME to have his article at "Rudolph Wanderone", and to me, it's like if we arbitrarily decided to move Lady Gaga's article to "Stefani Germanotta". I'm genuinely shocked no one else has even considered this issue in the past ten years. Previous discussion in 2014 had everyone pulling a different direction, and me in a more hostile mood, so I'm hoping to get a consensus this time with a clearer focus from both me and others. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Charlotte (Queen of Hearts • talk) 00:23, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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References

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See also

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